tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post1130978151595603711..comments2024-02-24T01:37:39.585-08:00Comments on InBabyAttachMode: So how many papers does having a baby cost?InBabyAttachModehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07895094545069682233noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-66490131511432900292014-04-05T23:12:35.345-07:002014-04-05T23:12:35.345-07:00Great blog post mama!! In the uk mamas tend to tak...Great blog post mama!! In the uk mamas tend to take nine months of leave for each baby (at least), due to maternity pay/leave legislation. I took seven months for my first and a year for my second and now I have opted to work part time. I'm losing much more footing in the publishing game and I will probably only opt to go full time in several years. But still, as you say, this is only a tiny part of thirty odd years of work xjclmellorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01298312300079472967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-37788597843859341462014-01-23T08:00:33.588-08:002014-01-23T08:00:33.588-08:00Thanks for answering that nicoleandmaggie!!Thanks for answering that nicoleandmaggie!!InBabyAttachModehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07895094545069682233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-50508881505810860012014-01-23T07:50:03.560-08:002014-01-23T07:50:03.560-08:00On the topic of the title of this post:
http://res...On the topic of the title of this post:<br />http://research.stlouisfed.org/wp/2014/2014-001.pdf<br />The answer appears to be: None for married women in economics on average once selection is controlled for. Some subgroups (unmarried mothers, mothers of several children) are more negatively affected, however.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-55337809888833335712014-01-21T09:01:39.066-08:002014-01-21T09:01:39.066-08:00The reason no-one is debunking the original articl...The reason no-one is debunking the original article is that it was so cluelessly unaware of the vast body of evidence for discrimination, and so blithely mansplaining in tone, that it was almost a satire. Seriously, it was like reading a letter from an art historian saying "epidemiologists should realize that correlation doesn't imply causation", and expecting to be admired for his insight. Cynricnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-16751235689305905712014-01-17T14:03:58.199-08:002014-01-17T14:03:58.199-08:00In the literature, we see tremendous gaps in selec...In the literature, we see tremendous gaps in selection due to gender alone. Solve this, and you've solved much of the problem. <br /><br />http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/<br /><br />http://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2013/oct/14/blind-auditions-orchestras-gender-bias<br /><br />You're clutching your pearls over a hangnail, while the rest of us are trying to stop arterial bleeding. <br /><br />Where did you get the 100% figure? If the article was 5% or 15% off, does it really matter? Can we just agree that the most significant problem is systematic bias, find ways to address that, and get on with our lives?<br /><br />This fiasco is making me wonder if wasting time arguing with men about discrimination might be more of a threat to women's publication quantity than childrearing.barefootwriternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-8831194749760154542014-01-17T13:18:42.795-08:002014-01-17T13:18:42.795-08:00Congratulations on the jobs!!Congratulations on the jobs!!mathbionerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17525536407206138695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-17041740100313845212014-01-17T08:45:55.606-08:002014-01-17T08:45:55.606-08:00What article? What arguments? What evidence was ci...What article? What arguments? What evidence was cited to debunk? There are hundreds of scientific, peer-reviewed papers out there on why there is a gender gap in science and what improves that gap. If you (or the LETTER -- not article) writer aren't aware of those, that's your failure. Put your big boy pants on and do a little research. Then you can talk about debunking. Jacquelyn Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05969643660596757562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-11011746385998712472014-01-17T07:34:22.540-08:002014-01-17T07:34:22.540-08:00@lukas: Oh, do you mean this US Dept. of Labor stu...@lukas: Oh, do you mean this US Dept. of Labor study: http://social.dol.gov/blog/myth-busting-the-pay-gap/? Because the Department of Labor's own studies show that the wage gap is most definitely real no matter how you measure it. Even the most conservative estimate, <i>after differences in average weekly work hours are accounted for</i>, shows a gap of 18-19 cents on the dollar. In their own words, the Department of Labor found that a woman facing this wage gap will "have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars over her working lifetime".<br /><br />So if, as you argue, discrimination is an "unproven assumption", what do you call this actual research published in another leading science journal: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109? In a double-blind study where scientists rated identical applications from people with female- and male-sounding names, "faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant."<br /><br />This is just one of *many* studies clearly documenting gender discrimination in the sciences that I could link you to. They're out there and easy to find, if only you want to look. We are all too busy publishing papers to do your work for you, after all. The fact of the matter is that you have entered a 400-level discussion with less than a 101-level of knowledge. Please go educate yourself before you embarrass yourself further.peregrinationsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-3125695793073702302014-01-17T05:32:23.924-08:002014-01-17T05:32:23.924-08:00Shame on Nature.
There actually has been a lot ...Shame on Nature. <br /><br />There actually has been a lot of research done on these questions. And on the questions of how to remove institutional barriers facing women in academia. If you're going to address this topic, you should at least put in citations. But that would involve you realizing you weren't the first person to ever have thought up this question. <br /><br />If Nature is going to publish letters to the editor with these "ground-breaking insights" then they need to only publish them from people who have ACTUALLY READ THE LITERATURE and are citing some of it. But if you had, then you wouldn't have sent such a stupid letter.<br /><br />Also you must not have been very old in 2005.<br /><br />(And no, it's not my job to educate you, but I'll be generous and suggest Why So Slow by Virginia Valian as a starting point. Lifting a Ton of Feathers is another good book with the research. These books are both ~10 years old and more research has come out since then. Particularly since the 2005 controversy. Your friendly research librarian can help you find more literature on this topic if you actually want to become educated rather than just bullying women and wasting their time.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-35081414411905724522014-01-17T05:09:31.206-08:002014-01-17T05:09:31.206-08:00Wow that's news to me - women are the sole gen...Wow that's news to me - women are the sole gender responsible for procreation and thus must bear 100% of the commitment towards raising their children. Interesting.KLBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-82782156865914832732014-01-17T04:47:43.760-08:002014-01-17T04:47:43.760-08:00How long have you been in the job market, Lukas? D...How long have you been in the job market, Lukas? Do you work in science?KLBhttp://evoneuro.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-39833912624847321572014-01-17T04:39:33.194-08:002014-01-17T04:39:33.194-08:00Thanks for coming here to comment, if you're L...Thanks for coming here to comment, if you're Lukas Koube. And if you're not, thanks for commenting too. I think it's true that there is a difference between how ambitious people are, but I don't think this separates by gender. And I think making young students believe that being female means you can't possibly publish as much as your male peers is a very damaging thing to do. There are loads of data out there showing what causes the 'leaky pipeline' for women in science and the Nature article doesn't cite a single one of them. This sexist handwaving is not helping anybody.InBabyAttachModehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07895094545069682233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-78686999682712575572014-01-16T20:43:48.510-08:002014-01-16T20:43:48.510-08:00I find your article both unsavory and intellectual...I find your article both unsavory and intellectually dishonest. Everyone knows that outrage and anecdotal evidence are not cornerstones of good arguments.<br /><br /> I don’t know how much more you could have publish if you never had kids and stayed in the lab a few more hours a day, that isn’t a scientific question.<br /><br />However, pointing out the logical fallacy that “under-representation = discrimination” is useful, especially since so many people make that mistake. <br /><br />People still believe the gender “wage gap is real”, instead of a statistical trick, despite the fact that even the Dept. of Labor under Obama published a rigorous study demonstrating that the vast majority of the gender wage gap disappears after taking into account just a few variables (men work more hours a week on average so they get paid for those hours.)<br /><br />A similar trend could be true of scientists and publishing, the problem is that evidence is never given, or even asked for, the assumption is made on solely ideological grounds.<br /><br />This assumption is unwarranted and deeply corrosive; challenging unproven assumptions is not misogynist, its science.<br />lukashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213882891977887603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-91654989143408326332014-01-16T20:26:18.097-08:002014-01-16T20:26:18.097-08:00can you explain how this amounts to "sexist g...can you explain how this amounts to "sexist garbage"? all i hear from this crowd is ad-homs, but the argumentation is rather thin. <br /><br />all the article stated was that women and men may make different choices in their lives, and that assuming the differences are necessarily the product of discrimination is nonsensical ideology at best.lukashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213882891977887603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-74503651957841125132014-01-16T20:21:25.148-08:002014-01-16T20:21:25.148-08:00This article misses the point entirely!
The orig...This article misses the point entirely! <br /><br />The original article made the assumption that 100% of the difference between male and female publishing rates was due to discrimination. this is an obvious logical fallacy, and all the article did was point it out.<br /><br />there are many reasons (pregnancy and childcare being two) why women and men may have different rates of publishing. failing to take this into account is a serious flaw that needed to be fixed. <br /><br />ironically, i didnt see one person debunk the article, just a bunch of angry name-calling and personal attacks.lukashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213882891977887603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-73760274428484304432014-01-16T12:05:45.850-08:002014-01-16T12:05:45.850-08:00The other thing to consider, it that maybe all tha...The other thing to consider, it that maybe all that imposed nurture time actually might improve your science. You may become more sympathetic, less concerned with what people think, better at delegating, and above all let your group, colleagues and collaborators know that it's ok to have children and be a scientist. Perdita Barrannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-78578896387902855482014-01-16T10:08:23.608-08:002014-01-16T10:08:23.608-08:00assoc prof of biol with 2 kids. a career in scienc...assoc prof of biol with 2 kids. a career in science is a marathon not a sprint. months of baby care is nothing, truly nothing in your career.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-42206973848423662014-01-16T09:54:18.584-08:002014-01-16T09:54:18.584-08:00I'd like to say I'm surprised that Nature ...I'd like to say I'm surprised that Nature published such sexist garbage with zero scientific merit in this day and age... but given Nature's recent history on the subject, I'm really not.<br /><br />There actually has been a lot of research done on these questions. And on the questions of how to remove institutional barriers facing women in academia. If they're going to address this topic, they should at least put in citations. But that would involve them realizing they weren't the first people to ever have thought up this question. (I actually failed a student paper on this topic for exactly that reason-- no research done on the question and bad logical arguments.)<br /><br />Shame on Nature.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-20874325477210175052014-01-16T06:52:14.138-08:002014-01-16T06:52:14.138-08:00Yes! We both have jobs in the homecountry. So I...Yes! We both have jobs in the homecountry. So I'm also spending my precious nap time energy on organizing a move across the Atlantic ;-)InBabyAttachModehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07895094545069682233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1923282658637824205.post-1725837676637736482014-01-16T06:49:04.024-08:002014-01-16T06:49:04.024-08:00This, all of this! Especially the part about havin...This, all of this! Especially the part about having to waste precious nap time energy addressing it. :)<br /><br />Have you and your partner already found post-postdoc positions?mathbionerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17525536407206138695noreply@blogger.com